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This is a report of a successful attempt to play a Paladin whose Thorns aura would return viable damage through to the end of Hell, played in modified single-player (but only for the Annihilus Small Charm, Hellfire Torch Large Charm and Ladder rune words) on /players 8 until level 75 in early Hell (so that everything could be equipped as early as possible), and /players 1 thereafter.
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Theory
The theory is that Thorns' returned damage would be viable in Hell if Amplify Damage and Inner Sight are cast on monsters before converting them: AD would lower physical resistance of both future converts and the monsters that would attack them; the converts would take more damage and thus return more, and this returned damage would be further enhanced on cursed attackers; and IS would significantly lower the future converts' defence, making them much easier for attackers to hit, and thus return even more damage over time.
AD would be cast by smiting with the Lacerator Winged Axe's 33% Chance to Cast Level 3 AD on Striking; level 3 AD applies Damage Resist -100% for 14 seconds in a radius of 3.3 yards. IS would be supplied by an Act I Rogue Scout hireling; at level 83 and with +3 to All Skills, a Rogue casts level 30 IS, reducing target defence by 1,615 for 124 seconds in a radius of 13.3 yards.
Does this work?
Thorn became a Guardian at level 83, so the theory does work in practice... against appropriate targets. However, the problem is finding an appropriate target (as will be discussed later).
Why would a Paladin choose Thorns?
If a Paladin were using a single target combat skill like Sacrifice, Smite, Holy Bolt, Charge, Vengeance or Fist of the Heavens (i.e. not Zeal or Blessed Hammer), Thorns could be used to damage multiple targets, improving killing speed.
Why Smite?
Smite was chosen as a combat skill because it:
- always hits (thus no Attack Rating requirements)
- stuns (crowd control)
- allows Holy Shield to be maximised (for defence, but also Smite damage)
- benefits more than most Combat Skills from skill bonuses (which enhance Thorns)
- doesn't benefit from and thus need certain mêlée modifiers (e.g. % Deadly Strike)
- benefits from AD (physical damage)
Game-play
Choosing an Appropriate Target
Since Thorns only returns physical damage dealt by a mêlée attack, it's an inappropriate skill to use against physical immunity, and monsters who don't use a mêlée attack (ranged and casters). Blocking can also affect killing speed; although returned damage can't be blocked, converts can potentially block attacks. This isn't a serious problem though, as most monsters do not block or have a high block percentage if they do.
However, there is one other factor that can significantly affect your ability to do Thorns damage: Monster AI. Even when a monster only has a mêlée attack, their other behaviour can seriously compromise Thorns. The most common (and frustrating) is running about or away: £@(<!^& Fallen, or Giant Spiders, Fetishes, Bat Demons, Baboon Demons, Zealots...
So, appropriate targets for Thorns are groups of mêlée attackers (at least two, but preferably more) without physical immunity who have little or no block and don't do anything except use their mêlée attack. There are enough monsters like this to make Thorns of situational use, but it is arguably an even more specialised offensive skill than Holy Bolt (which will only damage the undead). Having said that, when you can use it...
However, the majority of the time was effectively played as a Smiter, using 58% Chance of Crushing Blow to compensate for the lack of +% Enhanced Damage from a maximised aura (Might, Concentration or Fanaticism); a Smiter without + Damage or Life Tap, but a Smiter nonetheless. The focus will be on issues specific to Thorns.
Casting AD
AD is cast by Smiting with Lacerator. Smite's stun is important because the Lacerator, while being the most reliable means of regularly casting AD for characters other than Necromancers, also has Hit Causes Monster to Flee 50%: stunned monsters cannot flee. Since HCMF overwrites AD, this halves the chance to cast AD on the target from 33% to 16.5%. However, HCMF only overwrites AD on the target, not surrounding monsters. Time can be saved by smiting until the surrounding monsters are cursed, and then converting one of them. Wherever possible, herd monsters until an Unique or Champion is found; since they are unaffected by HCMF, they can be used to cast AD on all monsters more quickly.
The preferred aura while casting AD was Holy Freeze; slowing monsters by 54% made it that much easier. Applying cold damage, Hit Slows Target or other slowing effects is not recommended, particularly for the Rogue. It doesn't matter if the convert is slowed or immobilised (it's actually recommended if they have annoying AI), but if its attackers are, it will affect the rate at which they do damage and thus have it returned. Holy Freeze's slowing effect can be switched on and off. Against monsters Holy Freeze doesn't slow, Defiance was preferable.
Casting IS
Hopefully while the Paladin was busy engaging and cursing monsters, the Rogue cast IS; if she didn't, don't wait. Continuing to cast AD refreshes the duration, but smiting for longer increases the risk of actually killing the target; the greater the number that die, the weaker the rationale for using Thorns. IS makes nowhere near as significant an improvement to returned damage as the double application of AD (although it still helps). Fortunately, the Rogue casts IS quite frequently if she is not mobbed or forced to move by the proximity of monsters. If the Rogue is getting mobbed, something is being done wrong, regardless of the build played.
Conversion
Switch weapons to convert. Do not try to speed things up by using the Lacerator to both cast AD and convert. The chance to convert is on attack, but the chance to cast AD is on striking, which without Smite requires a hit-check. Chance-to-hit could be improved by waiting for the Rogue to cast IS and using Blessed Aim, but it's still not recommended. Thanks to the 50% HCMF, the potential convert will flee half the time and if converted but not cursed there's nothing to be done about it.
How many monsters should be converted depends on the size of the mob; as a rule of thumb, one convert for every half-dozen monsters is recommended. Once there's at least one convert, switch to Thorns.
Converting the monster used to cast AD (particularly if overridden by HCMF) isn't recommended, as they've been hit three times on average, and Conversion will be used three times on average as well (aim for at least level 9, for a 33% chance to convert). Even with a lack of skill-based +% ED or AR, in a single-player game there's a distinct possibility that potential converts will be killed or so badly damaged that they wouldn't outlive their attackers.
There's also some buggy behaviour; sometimes a convert would continue to attack. This seemed to happen whenever a monster had been stunned prior to conversion; it's possible that Conversion's AI alteration doesn't occur if the monster is stunned or incapacitated. However, this has also happened when a monster hasn't been stunned prior to conversion, so there may be another explanation.
While on the subject of bugs, Fetishes are disappointing. Yes, they have a tendency to run around and away, but at least they have the decency to die to the damage returned by one hit. However, after Conversion many Fetishes (both converts and attackers) became idle, not attacking or moving. This didn't happen all the time, so the cause is uncertain.
The weapon used for conversion was Hand of Blessed Light Mighty Scepter for its +3 to Paladin Skill Levels and 33% CB. It seemed like a good idea, but this is an elite scepter with +250-300% ED; potential converts were killed more often than desirable. A better choice would be a Strength 'AmnTir' War Scepter with +3 to Thorns for 25% CB, bought from Ormus, Jamella or Malah at character level 19 or less. Another interesting choice would be a Black 'ThulIoNef' club, hammer or mace, with 40% CB, and 12 charges of Level 4 Corpse Explosion; with AD, in a single player game...
After Conversion
Watch, or continue to Smite with Thorns. Area populated exclusively by suitable mêlée attackers are rare, so while they are preoccupied, smite ranged or caster monsters in the vicinity. Be very careful about smiting the mêlée mob: even with Smite on the left mouse button (no auto-targeting) there is a slim chance that an ex-convert will be attacked while the Thorns aura is still active. This is instant death, something found out the hard way. If absolutely necessary, use Smite's knock-back to isolate a monster and dispatch it safely.
Obstacles
Physical Immunity
Thorns is out of the question, but AD will break all normal physical immunities, leaving certain Stone Skin Unique and Possessed Champion monsters, and others that cannot be cursed. The Rogue's Fire Arrows alternating with the Magic Arrows of her Witchwild String Short Siege Bow, 43% Chance of Open Wounds and Hellfire Torch's 25% Chance to Cast Level 10 Firestorm on Striking allowed physical immunities to be dealt with fairly quickly.
Iron Maiden
Rogues are ranged and thus unaffected by IM, and Lacerator is a throwing weapon. Switching to Fanaticism allowed Oblivion Knights to be dealt with eventually. Switching to Cleansing removed any curses more quickly. Alternatively, using a less damaging Conversion weapon may have allowed the accompanying Doom Knights to be converted and then killed with Thorns.
Ancients
After touching the altar and checking their modifiers, using Vigour and running around the edge of the summit resulted in pursuit by a single Ancient. Switching to Fanaticism and cursing them resulted in them being taken down almost ridiculously quickly with Smite and CB.
Act Bosses
As with the Ancients, they were cursed and then taken down with Fanaticism, Smite and CB. Being used to playing at a higher player setting, a dagger with Life Tap charges was bought in anticipation of long, drawn-out encounters. The encounters were neither long nor drawn-out!
Since converts aren't normally possible in these battles, Thorns was useless; the Paladin was equipped to be as resilient as possible so that he could survive without % Life Stolen per Hit or Life Tap while he cursed and converted. In battles with normal, Unique and Champion monsters, the occasional potion and Redemption were used after a battle to recuperate (and during, if the resurrection or explosion of corpses needed to be prevented).
Equipment
| Source |
Description |
Reason(s)
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| Helm
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Harlequin Crest Shako |
+2 to All Skills (AS); Damage Reduced (DR) by 10%; +1.5 to Life and Mana/Level
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| Socket |
Jewel of Fervour |
15% Increased Attack Speed (IAS)
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| Amulet
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Mara's Kaleidoscope Amulet |
+2 AS; Resist All +20-30%
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| Armour
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Shaftstop Boneweave |
DR by 30%
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| Socket |
Jewel of Fervour |
15% IAS
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| Belt
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Verdungo's Hearty Cord Mithril Coil |
DR by 10-15%; +30-40 to Vitality; 10% Faster Hit Recovery (FHR)
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| Boots
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Gore Rider War Boots |
15% Chance of Crushing Blow (CB); 10% Chance of Open Wounds (OW)
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| Gloves
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Blood Vampirebone Gloves |
5-10% CB
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| Rings
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Raven Frost Ring |
Cannot be Frozen; +15-20 to Dexterity
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Bul-Kathos' Wedding Band Ring |
+1 AS; 0.5 to Life/Level
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| Charms
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Annihilus Small Charm |
+1 AS; Resist All +10-20%; +10-20 to All Attributes
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Hellfire Torch Large Charm |
+3 to Paladin Skill Levels (PS); Resist All +10-20%; 10-20 to All Attributes
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8 x Captain's Grand Charms |
8 x +1 to Offensive Auras (OA)
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4 x Small Charms of Balance |
4 x 5% FHR
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2 x Shimmering Small Charms |
2 x Resist All +3-5%
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| I
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| Weapon
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Heaven's Light Mighty Scepter |
+2-3 PS; 33% CB; 20% IAS; 2 Sockets
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| Sockets |
2 x Shael |
2 x 20% IAS
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| Shield
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Herald of Zakarum Zakarum Shield |
+46-46 Smite Damage; +2 PS; +2 to Combat Skills (CS); Resist All +50%
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| Socket |
Perfect Diamond |
Resist All +19%
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| II
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| Weapon
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Lacerator Winged Axe |
33% Chance to Cast Level 3 AD on Striking; 33% OW; 30% IAS
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| Shield
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Herald of Zakarum Gilded Shield |
+20-28 Smite Damage; +2 PS; +2 CS; Resist All +50%
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| Socket |
Perfect Diamond |
Resist All +19%
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Summary
- +6 AS, +8/5 PS, +8 OA and +2 CS (+14/11 to Defensive Auras, +22/19 OA and +16/13 CS overall)
- Resist All +75% in Hell
- DR by 50%
- 75% Chance of Blocking
- 30% FHR (6 frames)
Attack Speed
Below are the attack speeds in frames (there are 25 frames per second) for each weapon:
| Weapon |
Speed |
% IAS |
Normal Attack |
Smite
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+ Fan |
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+ Fan
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| I |
Heaven's Light Mighty Scepter
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0 |
90 |
9 |
8 |
7 |
6
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| II |
Lacerator Winged Axe
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-10 |
60 |
10 |
8 |
7 |
6
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The weapons apply 58% CB and 43% OW respectively.
Skills
| Combat Skills
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| Skill |
Base |
I |
II |
Reason
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| Sacrifice |
1 |
17 |
15 |
Prerequisite
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| Smite |
20 |
36 |
33 |
+540/495% ED
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7.6/7.0 second stun length
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| Holy Bolt |
1 |
17 |
15 |
Prerequisite
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| Zeal |
1 |
17 |
15 |
Prerequisite
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| Charge |
1 |
17 |
15 |
Prerequisite
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| Vengeance |
1 |
17 |
15 |
Prerequisite
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| Blessed Hammer |
1 |
17 |
15 |
Prerequisite
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| Conversion |
1 |
17 |
15 |
40% Chance to convert
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| Holy Shield |
20 |
36 |
33 |
+121-124 to Smite damage
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+685% Enhanced Defence
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38% Increased Chance of Blocking
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905 Seconds (15 minutes and 5 seconds)
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| Offensive Auras
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| Skill |
Base |
I |
II |
Reason
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| Might |
1 |
23 |
20 |
Prerequisite
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| Holy Fire |
1 |
23 |
20 |
Prerequisite
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| Thorns |
20 |
42 |
39 |
1,890/1,770% Damage returned
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| Blessed Aim |
1 |
23 |
20 |
Prerequisite
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| Concentration |
1 |
23 |
20 |
Prerequisite
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| Holy Freeze |
1 |
23 |
20 |
Enemies slowed by 55/54%
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| Fanaticism |
9 |
31 |
28 |
+560/509% ED (280/254% for allies)
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+190/175% AR
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+37% Effective IAS
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| Defensive Auras
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| Skill |
Base |
I |
II |
Reason
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| Prayer |
1 |
15 |
12 |
Prerequisite
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| Defiance |
9 |
23 |
20 |
+290/260% Enhanced Defence
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| Cleansing |
1 |
15 |
12 |
Poison and curse duration reduced by 76%
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| Vigour |
1 |
15 |
12 |
+40% Velocity
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| Redemption |
1 |
15 |
12 |
80% chance to redeem soul
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95 life and mana recovered
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Stats
Level 83
| Attribute |
Base |
Enhanced
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| Strength |
95 |
162
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| Dexterity |
55 |
122
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| Vitality |
345 |
452
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| Life |
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1,806
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| Energy |
15 |
62
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| Mana |
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373
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Hireling
Level 83 Act I Rogue Scout (Fire Arrow)
Equipment
| Source |
Description |
Reason(s)
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| Helm
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Andariel's Visage Demonhead |
+2 to All Skills, 20% IAS, 10% Life Stolen per Hit
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| Socket |
Ruby Jewel of Fervour |
Fire Resist +30%, 15% IAS
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| Armour
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Spirit Shroud Ghost Armour |
+1 to All Skills, Cannot be Frozen
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| Socket |
Jewel of Fervour |
15% IAS
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| Weapon
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Witchwild String Short Siege Bow |
2% Chance to Cast Level 5 AD on Striking, Resist All +40%, 2 Sockets
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| Sockets |
2 x Shael |
2 x 20% IAS
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Attack Speed
Below is the attack speed in frames (there are 25 frames per second):
| Weapon |
Speed |
% IAS |
Normal Attack
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+ Fan
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| Witchwild String Short Siege Bow
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0 |
90 |
10 |
9
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The Rogue requires level 20+ Fanaticism for a 9 frame attack speed.
Conclusion
In a single-player game, with AD and IS and appropriate targets, Thorns kills normal monsters quickly, usually in no more than two or three hits. It is utterly lethal against Unique monsters and their minions if they spawn Extra Strong, Cursed or enchanted by damage enhancing auras (particularly in combination). Thorns is useful for killing other particularly nasty bosses; against mêlée Fire and Lightning Enchanted Unique monsters, just convert a minion and let them beat themselves to death, and remain safe from their deadly bolts and death explosion (a ranged FLE Unique can be killed safely from range).
Unfortunately, mainly due to monster AI, Thorns is an even more specialised way of dealing damage than first thought. While extremely effective in the right conditions (The Moo Moo Farm is a playground), another attack is often necessary. There's really no such thing as a Thorns Paladin; this was actually a Smiter with a minor in Thorns.
In terms of multi-player games, Thorns isn't recommended; it might still be able to do useful damage in a two player game, and at most three. Beyond that, Thorns will be used less and less and become something of a deviance, dreaming of other players' nightmares: being charged by a pack of Extra Strong, Extra Fast, Frenzied Blood Lords while other monsters in the area supply AD, Might, Fanaticism, Blessed Aim and Conviction...
Mêlée characters will shun a Thorns Paladin (Thorns + ex-convert = instant death) while most casters would prefer Conviction, and all will probably do enough damage to render Thorns useless. A Thorns Paladin would be unusually picky about with whom he parties, since ideally he wants them to make his life easier (a Necromancer casting AD) or increase Thorns damage (a Druid with Spirit of Barbs). Otherwise, what's the point of being a Thorns Paladin... aside from the satisfaction of sitting back, relaxing and watching while monsters beat seven shades of snot out of each other? Hmm...
Acknowledgements
- Rykros1987, whose comment about cursed Necromancer minions highlighted the possibilities of cursed converts.
- Othin, whose detailed topics about Decoy and IS highlighted the advantages of lower defence and IS's role in achieving it.
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